tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post1325309387954111375..comments2023-04-18T00:44:59.351+10:00Comments on A dead man fell from the sky...: Why America is more like Athens than RomeGary Corbyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-66216601665991578372010-03-22T15:31:13.857+11:002010-03-22T15:31:13.857+11:00The largest on record is modern Switzerland, which...The largest on record is modern Switzerland, which is an interesting combination of direct and representative government.<br /><br />In theory the internet allows direct democracy at almost any size. In practice I'm fairly sure such a system would collapse.Gary Corbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-16816081350756586112010-03-22T15:01:02.762+11:002010-03-22T15:01:02.762+11:00One wonders what is the largest population for whi...One wonders what is the largest population for which direct, participatory democracy would still be practicable.<br /> ================ <br /> Detectives Beyond Borders<br />"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"<br /> <a href="http://www.detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/</a>Peter Rozovskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09977933481463759162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-91372562368059487342010-03-22T14:41:33.232+11:002010-03-22T14:41:33.232+11:00Hi Peter! Quorum was 6,000 Athenians. There were...Hi Peter! Quorum was 6,000 Athenians. There were between 20,000 and 30,000 voting citizens (all males 18+). Total city population is disputed but 200,000 as the rough average of the numbers people shout at each other.<br /><br />So the percentage of enfranchosed Americans is very much higher.<br /><br />But the average American votes maybe 30 times in their lives, I guess (figuring 15 times each for state and federal elections), whereas an Athenian voted 40 times a year, since every voter belonged to their parliament, for a rough total of 800 times in their lives.<br /><br />Also, Aven pointed out before that it was almost impossible to be a citizen and not hold an official position at least once in your life, either as a magistrate or an archon or a city official. The jobs were rotated rapidly.<br /><br />So the US enfranchisement is much higher, but the Athenian participation rate for those who qualified was astronomical.Gary Corbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-53405158717877745992010-03-22T13:58:20.389+11:002010-03-22T13:58:20.389+11:00Elizabeth, Larry Gonick is one of my heroes.
Some...Elizabeth, Larry Gonick is one of my heroes.<br /><br />Someone made the assertion that<br /><br /><i>"with a voting turnout of about 30%, even at the national level, it's far, far below Athenian participation rates"</i><br /><br />If metics and slaves are factored, presumably the Athenian turnout would drop.<br /><br />Comment, Gary?<br />================ <br /> Detectives Beyond Borders<br />"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"<br /> <a href="http://www.detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/</a>Peter Rozovskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09977933481463759162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-21413656534688583832010-03-22T13:50:01.947+11:002010-03-22T13:50:01.947+11:00Well, Romans were great engineers, Greeks were gre...Well, Romans were great engineers, Greeks were great artists. It's likely that Americans these days feel more comfortable talking about the interstate highway system than about Jackson Pollock. Americans' anti-intellectual streak also does not suggest immediate parallels with Athens.<br /><br />And "solons" is no longer acceptable American headlinese for "politicians."<br /> ================ <br /> Detectives Beyond Borders<br />"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"<br /> <a href="http://www.detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/</a>Peter Rozovskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09977933481463759162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-58934253701064450852010-03-21T15:01:31.203+11:002010-03-21T15:01:31.203+11:00People might be interested to know 7,500 words ha...People might be interested to know 7,500 words have been written in comments. That is an amazing amount!Gary Corbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-59642935414617372292010-03-21T06:30:05.020+11:002010-03-21T06:30:05.020+11:00Not that I had any particular opinion beforehand, ...Not that I had any particular opinion beforehand, but I'm convinced and will probably quote you on this._*rachel*_https://www.blogger.com/profile/03293167107180931700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-20827740842200669692010-03-20T16:44:45.519+11:002010-03-20T16:44:45.519+11:00Wow. This is a fabulous discussion. Thanks to Ga...Wow. This is a fabulous discussion. Thanks to Gary for providing the forum! <br /><br />I thought I'd chime in with my two cents on the Cartoon History of the Universe, simply for the fact that my students read the U.S. version today (we're on the Cold War). It's great! I've got one of the World volumes and the U.S. text. Highly recommended!Stephanie Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17437077559099315853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-69940619847042751202010-03-20T14:53:20.598+11:002010-03-20T14:53:20.598+11:00Can I say here, here Amalia T.? Oh wait, I guess I...Can I say here, here Amalia T.? Oh wait, I guess I just did. Thought provoking post Gary!Tanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10518718614911804428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-11046011089421004982010-03-20T14:25:35.358+11:002010-03-20T14:25:35.358+11:00Elizabeth, I actually don't disagree with you ...Elizabeth, I actually don't disagree with you at all. I feel like we're talking at cross purposes here and it's obviously because I'm not expressing myself very well.Loretta Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02253542701930736398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-49408829508771141952010-03-20T13:06:58.018+11:002010-03-20T13:06:58.018+11:00Thank you. I've written before about office h...Thank you. I've written before about office holding in Athens and should have thought to mention it here. The Athenians used limited-span public offices to prevent anyone gathering too much power. Every office lasted one year. Because there were so many jobs and relatively few citizens, almost everyone got a go at something.<br /><br />A Roman Senator on the other hand held his position for life, as long as the censor didn't get him.<br /><br />Modern politicians seem to last anything between 4 years to decades. So I suspect we're something between Rome and Athens on this one. Yes we're like Rome in the small percentage who hold office, but like the Athenians no one lasts a lifetime.Gary Corbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-26116606719319542662010-03-20T12:53:24.866+11:002010-03-20T12:53:24.866+11:00A little point about the enfranchisement/voter tur...A little point about the enfranchisement/voter turnout issue; while the percentage voting on any one motion might not be terribly high at Athens, another crucial issue was the degree to which the entire citizenry participated in the actual government. With the use of the lot, annual magistracies, the plurality of almost all positions (multiple magistrates for each function), and the restrictions on repeating office, I've seen it estimated that almost every single adult male in Athens (at the height of the democracy) could expect to hold at least one office, and serve on at least one jury (which was also often in essence political). That degree of self-governance, literally, is something that is inconcievable in a modern democracy. In that sense, Rome, with its restricted governing class, more closely parallels (though with important differences, of course) modern Western democracies.AvenSarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11556589178527382426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-16533030426354051002010-03-20T10:58:46.990+11:002010-03-20T10:58:46.990+11:00I've never heard of The Cartoon History of the...I've never heard of The Cartoon History of the Universe but I can see I'll be reading it.<br /><br />Something I've learned here surprising to me is the extent to which our US friends feel the US is disenfranchised. That's not an impression I've ever had, looking from the outside. There's never in history been a state that had a 100% enfranchised population, but I would have thought all modern democracies are at the top end of the spectrum.<br /><br />The voting turnout rate in Athens by the way is relatively easy to calculate. Their parliament, called the Ecclesia, consisted of every single voter. (Direct democracy means no representatives - everyone votes on every issue). The voters were every male citizen older than 18. The number of those is rubbery, but 30,000 is probably the max. Maybe as low as 20,000. The quorum for a meeting of the Ecclesia was 6,000. On a normal, boring day they had trouble making the quorum. So the minimum voter turnout was 20%. If something big was on, like a declaration of war, the turnout was close to every voter who was in Athens that day. But since lots of men were out on their farms that still wasn't everyone.Gary Corbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-79810565781051876872010-03-20T03:41:08.524+11:002010-03-20T03:41:08.524+11:00Matthew,
I love discussions like this, too! (Obvi...Matthew,<br /><br />I love discussions like this, too! (Obviously.) <br /><br />Thanks for pulling the numbers on voter turnout. I knew the numbers go up in presidential elections, but I wasn't sure what the actual stats were. <br /><br />In education, I took a similar route you did; my degrees are in industrial/labor relations and law, but my real passions are English and history. I thought it best to get an undergraduate degree in something important that I wouldn't be inclined to study on my own. But my electives were almost all in the humanities. :)<br /><br />I never had the horrific experience with "analyzing by rote" that so many others had, so I'm grateful I had outstanding teachers. No one ever taught me to hate the classics.<br /><br />Joanna,<br /><br /><i>UR Mall is YOUR mall!</i><br /><br />HA! Love the anecdote. :) <br /><br />Gary:<br /><br />Hey, you started it. :) I don't think you have anything to be scared of!<br /><br />And thank you for your kind comment. I will say, though, that I've had advantages other people don't have. My dad was the president of a state university for almost forty years (two state universities, actually), so I grew up in the shadow of both education and politics. I also had the tremendous luck to go to very fine schools. <br /><br />Amalia T: <br /><br /><i>You can't raise up Science without the arts to support it and create new solutions to old problems, imho.</i><br /><br />So very true. Science can't be our salvation, but it will be our destruction if we don't have a profound understanding of human nature. The kind of understanding that can't come from biology or genetics.<br /><br />Aven:<br /><br />What a fascinating period to study and teach. I'm like you -- when I think of Rome, I think of the late Republic. That's probably because I came to Roman history via Julius Caesar -- I love biographies, so I usually start with a person, and then try to understand more about the era in which he or she lived.<br /><br />My university had a healthy classics program, but it's the kind of university tailored to educate the privileged. What worries me is when I see people demanding that classics and other "impractical" programs be cut from state/public universities. Most people can't afford to attend an Ivy League school or a private liberal arts college: public universities are their only shot at a liberal arts education. I'd hate to see state universities become glorified trade schools. We created state universities precisely so everyone had access to an elite education. It's hard for me to believe so many people want to destroy that, and it's sad they don't have the historical perspective to understand what they're destroying.<br /><br />Pam:<br /><br />They're great books, aren't they? I give them partial credit for my obsession with the ancient world. The volumes on Greece and Rome aren't just hilarious -- they're better history than you get from a lot of textbooks.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01331620706524143366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-11467862600188518482010-03-20T03:38:55.596+11:002010-03-20T03:38:55.596+11:00Loretta,
Regarding fictional characters: this is ...Loretta,<br /><br />Regarding fictional characters: this is probably something we'll have to agree to disagree on, because I'm the opposite! :) I love gorgeous and charming heroes. I agree annoyingly perfect characters are, well, annoying, but there's a difference between annoyingly perfect, and brilliant but flawed.<br /><br />Take, for example, Enjolras in <i>Les Miserables</i>. He's brilliant. He's charming. He's so handsome, people call him Apollo. He's a natural leader; he can inspire people to action with a word. <br /><br />And he uses his great gifts to lead his friends to their deaths. Because he's too young, too reckless, and too convinced in the rightness of his cause to be wise. <br /><br />I love characters like Enjolras -- characters whose greatest strengths are also their greatest weaknesses. A fierce belief in yourself and your abilities is necessary for success, but it can lead you to tragically overestimate yourself. Self-doubt can keep you from pursuing a goal you value, but it can give you a healthy perspective of your limitations. Beauty can give you a great belief in your worth. But what happens when your beauty fades? Or when someone more beautiful comes along?<br /><br />The problem with outstanding fictional characters isn't their greatness; it's the fact that so few writers understand that greatness comes with a hefty price. You can't give a character everything and expect that to have no consequences. At the very least, a gifted hero will have to deal with the envy of others. Gifted people also have to fight a constant battle with their own vanity and hubris, and that's a battle they usually lose: in real life, and in good fiction. (Look at Tiger Woods.) Milton's Lucifer -- brilliant, gorgeous, and compelling -- is one of the most fascinating characters in English literature. He had almost everything. He was the brightest, most beloved angel in heaven. But he became obsessed with the one thing he couldn't have -- absolute power -- and look how that turned out.<br /><br />Julius Caesar, Alexander Hamilton, and Stephen Decatur were all brilliant, handsome, charming men, technically killed by rivals, but really undone by their own flaws. And if that happens in history, why shouldn't it happen in stories? I'm not a big fan of average, ordinary characters. I like characters who stand out in some way.<br /><br />Of course, I'm a fairy tale reader. I think there are basically two kinds of readers: fairy tale people, and folk tale people. Fairy tale people are like me -- we like to see the extraordinary. Folk tale people like things that are grittier, closer to the ground. There's room in fiction for both kinds of stories, but I think the entertainment industry is going through a folk tale phase. I read lots of books about average people facing extraordinary problems. It's harder to find stories about extraordinary people in titanic struggles, not only with outside forces, but also -- most of all -- with themselves.<br /><br />(Sorry for all the babble, but I love stories as much as I love history. Actually, I think I love history because it's really just one huge, epic story.)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01331620706524143366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-59080976933759830332010-03-20T03:36:14.522+11:002010-03-20T03:36:14.522+11:00Wow! It's such a pleasure to read everyone'...Wow! It's such a pleasure to read everyone's comments. I feel like I've stumbled on the 21st century equivalent of an Enlightenment salon. Thanks to Gary for starting the conversation and providing the forum to continue it.<br /><br />Loretta,<br /><br />I agree there's a difference between excellence and perfection, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the <i>pursuit</i> itself -- as long as you recognize your goal is impossible, and you're okay with that. "Better to shoot for the stars and miss than aim for the gutter and hit it." No human being can be perfect, and the vast majority of us will never have the success of Peyton Manning, J.K. Rowling, or Winston Churchill. That doesn't mean we shouldn't play football, write, or go into politics, and strive for the best while doing so.<br /><br />And I know you're not saying people shouldn't strive, believe me! I'm just saying I see the pursuit of beauty as a pursuit like any other. Striving toward a worthwhile goal, even if it might not be attained.<br /><br />As for what, exactly, beauty is -- well, it's different for everyone. Two of my brothers have a neverending debate about who's more beautiful, Jennifer Connelly or Scarlett Johansson. Listening to them argue about something so subjective is hilarious. :)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01331620706524143366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-21385189371417385052010-03-20T02:36:17.134+11:002010-03-20T02:36:17.134+11:00I.... I feel inadequate to comment. I thought my g...I.... I feel inadequate to comment. I thought my grasp of the classics was strong, but clearly not as strong as the people that frequent your blog, Gary!<br /><br />This has been an interesting read and debate.L. T. Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12448176940211118898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-12594695110075036952010-03-20T02:32:18.104+11:002010-03-20T02:32:18.104+11:00Ha! Great comments, magnificent dialogue. Great ar...Ha! Great comments, magnificent dialogue. Great article. Loved Elizabeth's reference to The Cartoon History of the Universe. I'm proud to say my son loves that book, he has read it numerous times, quite literally because he says it covered a lot more than was covered at his school. ;)Pam Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15508905951441588565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-91889546409835003672010-03-20T02:24:37.283+11:002010-03-20T02:24:37.283+11:00I don't think I can reply to everything that&#...I don't think I can reply to everything that's been said -- it's all very interesting, though! -- but here are a few thoughts:<br /><br />Matthew: I cheerfully withdraw my comment about US voter turnout, which was plucked from my terminally faulty memory and should therefore be discarded. I don't know, offhand, how the actual figures would compare to either Greece or Rome.<br /><br />Elizabeth: I completely agree about the Late Republic as being the closest parallel period for the US, as I see it. Which may be why I have no trouble seeing those connections -- my area of work is the late Rep. and early Augustan periods, so that's what I naturally think of when I think of Rome (unlike many, who probably think of the longer-lasting Empire).<br /><br />Re: physical perfection in Greece, again that's partially a result of the basic ethnic homogeneity of the culture. Although the ideal proportions weren't possible for most people even in Athens, at least they were based around the same type of body structure as most citizens had. In the US, or any of the more heterogeneous societies today, such a monolithic model is absurd (though that doesn't stop it from existing, of course). I think the question about whether the US, and other cultures, are pursuing "perfection" or "excellence" or "health" is a complex question, and though there may be parallels to the Greek world, it's a lot more complicated than that. (And issues of race, class, gender, etc. are so important to that discussion, and culturally specific).<br /><br />Finally, re: Classics in school, you don't have to convince me of the utility/desirability, of course! But while the humanities in general are under threat right now, I actually don't see a huge change in the amount of Classics being taught in Canadian schools, anyway, from 10-20 years ago; ever since Latin stopped being mandatory, there hasn't been a huge amount taught, in most places, but it's available at university, and actually the Myth and Civilization courses are not at all badly enrolled, usually. So it's not all doom and despair... yet...AvenSarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11556589178527382426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-81474563725488049052010-03-20T02:16:27.427+11:002010-03-20T02:16:27.427+11:00Matt: I know-- but ultimately we didn't pursue...Matt: I know-- but ultimately we didn't pursue it to that extreme end (though we were sterilizing insane people along with the rest of the world for longer than I'd like to admit), and when we saw other people carrying it too far, we helped put a stop to it (belatedly perhaps but still) and I don't think that the world would tolerate a recurrence by anyone. <br /><br />I researched Eugenics practices and insane asylums of the early part of the 20th century for a book I'm working on, and man, it is horrifying. But like I said, we've rejected that kind of behavior now on the whole.Amalia Dillinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13005039978668326144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-34205981584338399842010-03-20T02:11:10.973+11:002010-03-20T02:11:10.973+11:00Amalia --
Interesting historical tidbit from my w...Amalia --<br /><br />Interesting historical tidbit from my wife (who knows ridiculous amounts of facts about WWII and the Holocaust): U.S. scientists were the first ones to craft the theories behind Eugenics. The Nazis only apparently got the idea for the "Master Race" after they saw the presentation at the World's Fair in the 1930s.<br /><br />I already mentioned this separately, but I'll say it here for everyone else -- voter turnout in 2004 was 60.71% of those eligible.Matthew Delmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452378192874048547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-10571187766269904002010-03-20T01:56:35.835+11:002010-03-20T01:56:35.835+11:00Just a few notes:
Jefferson and the other foundi...Just a few notes: <br /><br />Jefferson and the other founding fathers were educated men-- Higher education at that time WAS a classics education. That used to be THE education! A foundation in Latin and Greek and the Classics was thought essential for all further education, regardless of how it might or might not be applied in the real world. Obviously this is no longer the case today, as we've moved toward vocational and specialized training as our industry has become more highly specialized. I was at a writer's conference a few years ago which was themed with writers who come from scientific and medical backgrounds, and THEY said that Medical schools are dying for students who have some background in liberal arts as well as the sciences because those people are more innovative/able to think outside of the box. This is something that ALL specialized fields are losing by stripping away the arts. You can't raise up Science without the arts to support it and create new solutions to old problems, imho.<br /><br />Re: perfection<br />I disagree that America pursues this, or at the very least that it is one of our major drives as a culture. Sure, everyone wants to be pretty, and sure, supermodels and actresses are pretty well popularized as an impossible standard, but we rejected Eugenics as a nation, and I think we've learned from the mistake of the perfect master race. Standards of beauty change over time, and even now they/we are taking the first steps toward more natural looks by forbidding people under a certain wait from modeling and forcing these starved women to eat. It isn't at all fixed, but as HEALTH conscious as the world is becoming, I have plenty of faith that it will get there. Also, crazy thin supermodels and impossible standards of beauty are NOT limited to America. And lets not forget that until recently the Chinese bound the feet of their girls so that they couldn't grow properly to achieve a "perfect" beauty-- and I would dare to suggest that China was not really all that influenced by Rome or Greece.<br /><br />Re: Voting statistics<br />Matt, the 2008 election had a historic turnout from what I knew-- What are the numbers for 2004? That might be a more correct assessment of an average election.<br /><br />Bane: I am flattered! But also certain if you had gotten to it first, your response would have taken the words out of my mouth.<br /><br />I think that's all for now... I might be back for more later.Amalia Dillinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13005039978668326144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-29094090651476004142010-03-20T00:36:50.233+11:002010-03-20T00:36:50.233+11:00What's scary for me is next time I sit down to...What's scary for me is next time I sit down to write in the blog, I'm going to know there are all these seriously well educated and clever people reading it. Hope I can keep up with you.<br /><br />Can I point out, for all the depressing thoughts about the future of education, that Elizabeth is obviously barely out of the system, and if it can produce someone of her insight then something must be working right! Stephanie and Aven are teaching as hard as they can go. All is not lost!Gary Corbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-40936447100976483482010-03-20T00:06:19.126+11:002010-03-20T00:06:19.126+11:00Wow. The responses here are wonderful, and some.....Wow. The responses here are wonderful, and some...a little depressing albeit true. <br /><br />Amalia T. is correct--the latest generations of students aren't learning much at all about classical society and history. My only memory (prior to college) is an assignment we were given in sixth grade to pick an ancient civilization and rebuild it. We were given a list of cities to choose from. Rome and Ancient Egypt were picked first. I sat in the back, so by the time I got up to choose, I was stuck with Ur (although I do pride myself on my modern-day slogan for the Sumerian mall: Ur Mall is YOUR mall!--but hey, I was 11)<br /><br />The only reason I studied classical Greek in college at all is because I was the type of kid who had to wait for her mom at the library everyday after school. So I discovered it on my own. <br /><br />And after seeing all of these very astute comparisons to both Athens and Rome, I'm starting to question our educational system even more so. Will the next generation even hear of Athens at all? Thanks to Caesar, I think Rome will always be a footnote, but...well, I guess it's just a little frightening.<br /><br />As for the debate at hand, I've come in so late in the game and read over all of the comments, that I'm finding it hard-pressed to come up with something new to add (aside from my embarrassing childhood memory above), so I'm just going to say that very, very good arguments were made on both sides, and my intellectual curiosity has received a jump start this morning. So thank you!<br /><br />Great post, Gary!Joannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09664402491780777165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-65424538070203621582010-03-19T20:57:40.423+11:002010-03-19T20:57:40.423+11:00I love discussions like this.
Also, re: voter tu...I love discussions like this. <br /><br />Also, re: voter turnout numbers. I checked the stats again for recent American presidential elections, in case anyone's interested:<br /><br />133 million people voted in the US presidential election of 2008, out of a total of 213 million who were eligible. This results in a total voter turnout of 62.36%.<br /><br />Which is significantly better than the 30% that people keep bandying around. In fact, <a href="http://elections.gmu.edu/voter_turnout.htm" rel="nofollow">this website</a> has more detail on the figures for recent elections. <br /><br />Elizabeth --<br /><br />I'm with you on hating it when people deride a liberal arts education. My degree's in journalism, but my first and last loves in academia are English and History. 'Course, I'm a storyteller at heart so that shouldn't surprise anyone :). <br /><br />One of the things that's bothered me for ages is that we're taught to analyze novels and poems in rote, and forced to read complex tales that we might not have the life experience to understand quite yet.<br /><br />I've said in other places that I didn't like Hemingway when I read him in college; that might be different now because I'm older and thus more likely to get what he's talking about. <br /><br />A classics education shouldn't go away, but it does need to change.Matthew Delmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452378192874048547noreply@blogger.com