tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post1068782477012645998..comments2023-04-18T00:44:59.351+10:00Comments on A dead man fell from the sky...: How gay was my Greece?Gary Corbyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-17601964058589898002011-06-11T00:01:10.896+10:002011-06-11T00:01:10.896+10:00This post and the comments are a goldmine of infor...This post and the comments are a goldmine of information! <br /><br />My only informed comment is that I think the Achilles/Patroclus interpretation in the classical world is not that much different from the commentary I heard from my contemporaries after Lord of the Rings entered movie theaters, regarding the relationship between Sam and Frodo.Amalia Dillinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13005039978668326144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-13085897042435198442011-05-11T13:31:01.173+10:002011-05-11T13:31:01.173+10:00Wow, to Terence, dgm and Robert. The good thing a...Wow, to Terence, dgm and Robert. The good thing about writing this blog is I end up learning more than I started with. That's sort of amazing.Gary Corbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-35179266009236955552011-05-11T12:04:21.315+10:002011-05-11T12:04:21.315+10:00Sarah,
Alexander didn't marry and conceive a...Sarah, <br /><br />Alexander didn't marry and conceive a child before leaving Macedonia to invade Persia. That's totally contrary to the usual practice of making sure you have an heir before you get yourself killed. Most people took it as a sure sign he was 100% gay. <br /><br />He married Stateira for good political reasons, so it meant nothing. But Roxane was totally off his own bat, to someone of no political advantage whatsoever, hence a big surprise.Gary Corbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-90281815867294373582011-05-11T11:03:43.587+10:002011-05-11T11:03:43.587+10:00This translation of Lysistrata was published anony...<a href="http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lysistrata" rel="nofollow">This translation</a> of Lysistrata was published anonymously in 1912, but it is rumoured that the translation was by Oscar Wilde.<br /><br />When you said Oscar Wilde had translated Lysistrata, I assumed this must have been the edition Aubrey Beardsley illustrated, but apparently not, that was done by someone called Samuel Smith.RWMGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04271851970303022440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-4830852236566291842011-05-11T08:50:05.365+10:002011-05-11T08:50:05.365+10:00The erastes/eromenos system of course lived on aft...The erastes/eromenos system of course lived on after classical times - we see echoes of it all through the literature and we could make the arguement that nineteenth century english milords cavorting with shepherd boys was a pale reflection of this.<br /><br />Interestingly, my wife was teaching English to migrant kids from rural Greece some years ago, and got them to do show and tells about growing up in Greece as part of a confidence building exercise.<br /><br />One kid did one describing something very much like the erastes/eromenos system in his village - sort of mentoring+ ...dgmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16429298708780406789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-34934325591211727332011-05-11T00:16:34.311+10:002011-05-11T00:16:34.311+10:00Mary Renault lived the better part of her life wit...Mary Renault lived the better part of her life with a woman, Julie Mullard, whom she met when both were nurses, and she was active with the writers' organization PEN, which has a history of engagement with human rights issues. A postscript to <i>The Friendly Young Ladies</i> (1944) written shortly before her death and published in the 1984 Virago Press edition shows that she did not like the term "gay" (which she compared to "disinterested" as a word that had shifted meaning for, in her view, the worse) or the visible militancy of some contemporary activism, but that is because she saw the latter as counterproductive to the achievement of tolerance for homosexual people, of which she regarded Greece as a kind of model. There was no specific legal prohibition against female same-sex behaviour in British law, or in that of South Africa, to which Renault and Mullard emigrated around 1947, but there was certainly prejudice (and indeed she had to find a different US publisher for <i>The Charioteer</i>, about a gay man in wartime Britain, as her previous one wouldn't print it), and awareness of these things no doubt influenced her.<br /><br />If it's true (as Plutarch says at <i>Alexander</i> 67.8) that the Persian eunuch Bagoas was Alexander's beloved (and he is the only person any Greek writer calls Alexander's <i>eromenos</i>), that in itself suggests a particular broad-mindedness on his part, as eunuchs were generally looked down upon by the Greeks both as people and as lovers. But when we find "boy" in Greek homoerotic contexts, it's pretty much exclusively "youth", "teenager" or "young man" we should be thinking: some texts are quite explicit about this; that the most attractive age is just before the appearance of the adult beard (Straton of Sardis, <i>Greek Anthology</i> 12.4) and that a young man could simultaneously be both pursued and pursuer (Xenophon, <i>Symposium</i> 8). And remember that Greek society generally eroticized youth and that (insofar as we can tell) in both Greek and Roman society it was by no means unusual for a girl to have been married for the first time in the early teens. But there's also some evidence that the rigid <i>erastes</i> / <i>eromenos</i> model and the necessarily temporary relationships it suggests was not universal, and especially that (near) coeval pairs were possible. Moreover, even if Plato himself does not endorse it, Aristophanes' speech in the <i>Symposium</i> suggests that the notion of inherent, permanent sexual orientation was not unknown.<br /><br />Art may not be a reliable guide: for one thing, we don't actually know the proportions of wares produced; for another, we do know that some kinds of scenes are found more often or only in particular fabrics: human male coeval pairs in sexually explicit erotic scenes appear on Tyrrhenian amphorae (thought to have been made in Attika for export to Italy), but are not found in domestic Attic wares (and Tyrrhenian amphorae also tend to emphasize the more gory aspects of narratives like the sacrifice of Iphigeneia).<br /><br />It's not entirely true that "lesbian" in reference to female homoeroticism is a wholly modern term: while the verb "lesbiazo" referred to something (in old comedy always fellatio, according to Henderson's <i>Maculate Muse</i>, pp. 183-4) a woman could do with a man, Lucian (<i>Dialogues of the Courtesans</i> 5.2) does have a character make an explicit association of Lesbos with "masculine" women who are exclusively interested in female lovers.T Lockyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01156822854918301621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-88806562104995056642011-05-11T00:07:36.664+10:002011-05-11T00:07:36.664+10:00Sorry for changing the subject, sort of, but why w...Sorry for changing the subject, sort of, but why was Alexander's marriage to Roxane a 'surprise move'? <br /><br />Because he'd already done his marriage duty and clearly preferred men?Sarah Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13265589529909793312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-7750029159760314252011-05-10T23:23:47.513+10:002011-05-10T23:23:47.513+10:00Forgot to add...Robert, yes, schools are squeamish...Forgot to add...Robert, yes, schools are squeamish, but maybe not more so than in the past. Somehow I have a funny feeling that you were extremely well read from an early age.<br /><br />I've seen it said by the way, I've no idea if it's true, that one of the early translations of Lysistrata was by a certain Oscar Wilde.Gary Corbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-89481475363633357862011-05-10T23:17:46.920+10:002011-05-10T23:17:46.920+10:00Terrific points all.
Mary Renault was certainly t...Terrific points all.<br /><br />Mary Renault was certainly the greatest author of ancient Greek novels ever. But she seems to have had a thing for gay guys, even in her contemporary work, and I assume that coloured her plotting somewhat.<br /><br />You're right Robert, Lysistrata doesn't mention a few options, and there's a certain lack of reality--though I note with interest that the molls of Mexican drug gangsters recently pulled a Lysistrata to stop their boyfriends slaughtering each other. The parallels are amazing. <br /><br />Umm, yes, Alexander's Persian boyfriend was castrated. The Greeks were as uncomfortable with castration as we are today, and I'm writing this with my legs crossed and wincing, but the Persians were totally into it. <br /><br />And yep, it does make for some fun plot devices, and I'm never one to give away a fun plot device.Gary Corbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-8452836462279767472011-05-10T19:38:48.084+10:002011-05-10T19:38:48.084+10:00I am so glad to hear he had been castrated.
The a...I am so glad to hear he had been castrated.<br /><br />The ancient world offers some interesting plot devices and twists.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-12237142011866733232011-05-10T18:46:51.603+10:002011-05-10T18:46:51.603+10:00Boy here certainly doesn't mean prepubscent. B...Boy here certainly doesn't mean prepubscent. Bagoas (the Persian Boy of the title) is a Persian eunuch in his late teens/early twenties.RWMGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04271851970303022440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-47365188183532388882011-05-10T18:30:14.033+10:002011-05-10T18:30:14.033+10:00@RWMG. As a poorly read archaeologist I have not; ...@RWMG. As a poorly read archaeologist I have not; man:man I'm ok with, [have you read Gilgamesh?], but man:boy I find a bit ikky, it's may be just my conditioning, [and time spent at an English boarding as a child!]Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-81777077673286295972011-05-10T18:10:35.066+10:002011-05-10T18:10:35.066+10:00@Geoff. Not romantic? Splutter. Have you read Mary...@Geoff. Not romantic? Splutter. Have you read Mary Renault's "The Persian Boy". I don't think you have to be gay to recognise it as a great romance.RWMGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04271851970303022440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-45580946515866905002011-05-10T18:04:48.506+10:002011-05-10T18:04:48.506+10:00I'm not sure "Lysistrata" proves any...I'm not sure "Lysistrata" proves anything. It also ignores the possibility of (ab)using slaves and prostitutes. I'm sure the audience was willing to suspend its disbelief for the sake of a dirty joke or thousand. <br /><br />Male/male relationships can't have been all that rare if there were enough pairs around for the Thebans to form an elite fighting force like the Sacred Band wholly composed of erastes/eromenos pairs.<br /><br />As other posters have pointed out 'gay' identity and the whole hetero/homo dichotomy are modern day ideas. I suspect the average Classical Greek was quite happy to insert Tab A into Slots B, C, D, and all the way to Z depending on what was available, and didn't particularly mind which, and nor did anyone else provided he also did his family duty. Even today there are many, many men who have sex with other men but don't think of themselves as gay.<br /><br />Have schools got more squeamish since I was at school? I don't particularly remember Ancient Greek male/male relationships being discussed at school till I was 16 or 17, but we were encourage to read Mary Renault long before that. And when I was 13 or 14 we were left in no doubt about the nature of James VI and I's relationships with various handsome young male courtiers.RWMGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04271851970303022440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-69585127717880434212011-05-10T11:52:44.073+10:002011-05-10T11:52:44.073+10:00Julie, glad you liked it.
I'm with you on A...Julie, glad you liked it. <br /><br />I'm with you on Aspasia. Personally I rank her with Gorgo and Diotima among the top intellectual elite of the century. I guarantee Aspasia will be appearing in the series some time down the story line.<br /><br />I think re your other point, that it wasn't a question of any perceived inferiority so much as of protecting your womenfolk. If you messed with another man's daughter or wife, you could expect to be on the receiving end of a sharp sword. It was legal to kill a guy if you caught him in bed with your wife or daughter. There are known cases where this happened and the killer walked free. So young ladies were absolutely not candidates for an erastes/eromenos relationship.Gary Corbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-79804448773196266882011-05-10T11:29:21.488+10:002011-05-10T11:29:21.488+10:00Hi Geoff, I had this three quarters written when y...Hi Geoff, I had this three quarters written when you did your slavery post. It seems to be Political Incorrectness Week.Gary Corbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-42105240656842313982011-05-10T11:27:23.496+10:002011-05-10T11:27:23.496+10:00Hi Vicky! Yes, it's sort of a tricky subject....Hi Vicky! Yes, it's sort of a tricky subject. I'm wondering how many work website filters are about to block me. The words in the post tick just about every box.<br /><br />Thanks for pointing out that "gay" is a very recent term. Of course you're right about the superior/inferior thing, and of course there's the famous ancient pottery picture of a Persian on the receiving end from a Greek, which proves your point exactly. (I thought about including some pictures of pottery porn, but then I'd be blocked <i>for sure</i>.<br /><br />I've got photos I've taken of drunken Greeks vomiting! I could post them, I guess, but now we're heading into seriously gross.Gary Corbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14759372069119740227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-75703899910622300362011-05-10T11:18:29.774+10:002011-05-10T11:18:29.774+10:00Good post, I just glad it's you that has to th...Good post, I just glad it's you that has to think about this stuff! <br />I think, <i>for the sake of the children,</i> classical studies tends not to dwell on this topic; a bit like slavery, it does not make this period particularly romantic, or child friendly - although as I recall, it's was actually the gruesome bits that tended to interested my young mind.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-40010421482118095972011-05-10T10:48:40.120+10:002011-05-10T10:48:40.120+10:00This is such a great post. I just learned about 15...This is such a great post. I just learned about 15 new things and "camp as a row of pink army tents" almost made me spit water all over my keyboard.<br /><br />One little sliver I'd always associated with the mentoring aspect of the erastes/eromenos system was the idea that these bonds were formed between men because they didn't generally view women as their intellectual equals. Is this just an apocryphal thing I picked up somewhere? It does seem sort of practical for them to have had a sort of surrogate father in place, given the times.<br /><br />Also, not surprised Pericles was besotted with Aspasia. I think I'M besotted with her. From everything I know about her she sounds completely brilliant and awesome!Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17507983780688605103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-524039117682127217.post-29126546702670985022011-05-10T10:47:48.148+10:002011-05-10T10:47:48.148+10:00Excellent post, Gary! It is a topic that, unfortun...Excellent post, Gary! It is a topic that, unfortunately, I'm obligated to tip-toe around since my books are for children. But not here! :-)<br /><br />One point that fascinates me is the way the ancients interpreted male sexual relationships (the word "gay" and it's meaning was unknown to the them)--whomever one had sex with was irrelevant as long as one was the erm, "active" partner. This is why it was acceptable for young men to be taken as lovers because their age and status automatically made them the passive or "inferior" parties. <br /><br />Once the boy passed into manhood,it was considered very bad form to continue to be the passive receptor in a male-male relationship. It was all about who penetrated whom.<br /><br />This was why the relationship between Alexander and Hephastion was scandalous to some--because they were men of nearly the same age and status. A younger boy would've made sense to them, but not two men of the same age.<br /><br />Anyway, fascinating discussion. Also, I've never seen pottery depicting drunken Greeks vomiting. Ha! Off to find some images...Vicky Alvear Shecterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17570828339389206203noreply@blogger.com